http://www.wiredbrain.net/


RE: The Friends have Visions: ( I got this off the net)


 


I don't know of any really adequate academic studies on how we


Friends (Quakers) handle such things -- we *do* sanction personal


revelation-- but our methods are fairly


standardized. A Friend who is "led by the Spirit" to a new vision


or concern may act on it privately, or may ask her


Quaker community to act, depending on the nature of her


"leading". 





I BELIEVE I MAYBE LEAD BY THE SPIRIT - AND WANT YOUR HELP


I DON'T KNOW WHERE ELSE TO TURN.





If she asks the community to act, the local Meeting for


Business will refer the issue, via the Committee on Ministry and


Oversight (or its local equivalent), to a clearness


committee.  The clearness committee will meet with the


individual for however long it takes, seeking to discern


whether the leading is really "from God" or not. 





I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS A MEETING IN MY PART OF FLORIDA - EAST


CENTRAL - I'M NOT SURE WHAT "from God" means to you -  I WAS a


friend in Chicago (decades ago, and worked with the service


committee) but now and for many years have been a


happy Episcopalian, but don't trust them in this matter, its not


their common way, their habit - they maybe out of


practice.





There are no hard-and-fast recipes for deciding whether a


leading is genuine or not:  such a recipe would not be a


good substitute for active wisdom, and anyway, most cases


turn out to be unique in some fashion.  But as I have said, we


have certain standards we nearly always start with. 


These standards generally include such things as the


individual's description of how the revelation arrived (how does


it sound? -- honest? truly inspired?), the individual's manner


(clear vs. agitated, moved versus argumentative, that sort of


thing), parallels with precedents in the history of our


(Judaeo-Christian) faith, and whether the leading seems more like


a standard political -social conviction or like a genuine


non-rational breakthrough to something new and


valid. 





THAT'S WHAT STUCK ME - A NON-RATIONAL (not- irrational -


just beyond reason -) to something new, valid and very


important. (Not really new - but a new twist on a very old theme


- the COVENANT - )





We will pray over the issue and "hold it in the Light" --


i.e., hold our awareness of it in one consciousness with our own


sense of what is divine.  





     WHAT DOES IT MEAN - "hold it to the light" I think I


know - but awareness of your own consciousness and a sense of the


divine - is rare - in my experience anyway - really you do that -


have that - GEE!





We will not rush to conclusions, knowing how very easy it is to


be wrong. The committee will report its findings to the Meeting


for Business, and the Meeting for Business will


wrestle with the matter in its turn.  If the Meeting for


Business agrees that the leading is genuine, it may --


depending again on the nature of the leading --pass on its


findings, in the form of a minute or epistle, to other


meetings elsewhere in the Quaker world.  Or it may give the


Friend who has experienced the leading a "travelling


minute", which she may take with her to other Meetings,


saying basically that "this Friend travels with our


blessing, under a concern that appears valid to us".However, no


Friend will be expected to sanction the validity of some other


Friend's leading just because a clearness committee or a Meeting


for Business has found that the leading appears


genuine. 





THAT'S NOT MY CONCERN - ONLY TO SEEK PEOPLE OF THE SPIRIT


WITH A LAMP TO LIGHT MY WAY 





The issue can always be re-opened.  We have had cases where a


single person's reservations about the character of a


leading has turned a whole Meeting community around, just as we


have had cases where a single person's leading has done so. This


method has worked well for us for 300 years or so.  If you need


to verify my description of it, you could start by writing the


clerks of major Quaker yearly meetings, such as London,


Philadelphia, New England, Baltimore, etc., and asking them for


information on this matter. 





They will probably refer you to someone whom they consider


capable of giving an accurate answer for their community. 


Baltimore has an INTERNET address. Is this information


helpful? Best wishes, Marshall Massey INTERNET: 





HERE IS THE VISION: or a story about it -





The Covenant:





For Friends who may have knowledge of spirits or


leading let me be as straight as possible. I will try not to get


carried way but keep my feet on the ground. 





1.) There is a connection between life and the environment.     


This is the Covenant: 





     The purpose of life is to exist within a niche and


expand as possible. If life doesn't keep in balance there is a


collapse. Too much algae, not enough oxygen, life itself is


balance of resources and the demands on resources. There is a


little misunderstanding about dominion and be fruitful and


multiply. We are different from other life in that we


are aware. The forbidden fruit is self consciousness. The


covenant is sub-conscious - it's in the dream time. We are beasts


and as living creature have in our very existence a sense of


where we belong. 





2.) When the Covenant (Life and its environment) is broken all


hell breaks loose (Isaiah 34 ) Rwanda - it is a moral or value


problem because we have lost touch with the earth that sustains


us. (Earth Summit Agenda 21) The problem is


emotional, passions, needs, desires, greed, self-centered - et


al. Surely we all know that man must have a purpose


beyond himself. Maybe some don't know that - Those that know will


have no trouble in understanding - those that don't


know or don't care will wonder what they lived for, and get into


trouble, in the long run. (In the long run we are all dead - Lord


MK) (I have been seeing the "Last Wave" by Peter Weir)





3.) The answer (maybe) in the Sufi way - believe it or not the


Sufi's created civilization about 6,000 years ago. The "teacher


of the Age" taught people to be human. It was a


trick - an illusion. Human passion were too strong, the


animal character too important, so there had to be leaders - a


responsible elite. The leaders would have training (step by step


practice) and education (discussion and meditation) in the way of


wisdom.





Leaders could be "in this world but not of this world" while the


masses were just in the world and believed in illusions. Leaders


could see and feel beyond themselves, their


passions, and needs and desires. It happens slowly but each one


could teach one and Civilization could continue. It was a secret,


in that the leaders knew the illusion they created for the masses


were just that an illusion. They were the


Wizard of OZ (another Sufi tale) The little boy in the


Emperors New Cloths who shouts out - but it's just a


illusion - get into a lot of trouble - as does Socrates,


Jesus, and other who challenge the old or create a new


illusion. 





(I still feel funny saying this - nothing new or has not


been said in the last 6000 years but not on INTERNET anyway - If


I am wrong forgive me - it is just the sounds of birds - no one


will listen -  it has not been done without forty years of


thought - I am ready for - I have had the dream of death of white


nothing, beyond self, it's the children - and their children, God


give them a chance - some chance - any chance - I don't have to


justify myself )





Now we are in the age of mass publics - of TV - and of many


leaders - many voices - and the elite is in disarray. The


obligations of leadership, George Bush learned at Phillips, or I


learned at the University of Chicago, a British Public Schools,


have been overwhelmed by commercial, entertainment values of no


substance or worth. Does William Jefferson


Clinton know who he is? What is behind the image - more


images? Surely you need character as described in the James O.


Wilson article. (Aristotle's virtue) The world is in deep


trouble. The secrets needs to be advertised, let go. Our


only hope is a larger group of people that have access to


the wisdom. ( I hear the distance voices - shame - shame - you


will destroy what you need to protect - no - but its not likely


to do much good, my friends, either way - I think


it's time to experiment, even the F&A M.)





In tradition such knowledge would be dangerous. People would


misunderstand and create another dogma. Yes, that true and they


may or will. But, think of the alternatives. The


overwhelming power of the western values (commercial,


temporal, materialist, short-tern, selfish, vulgar, have


overwhelm the society of taste - manners - style - quality -


class - yes class - the tradition is that the poor don't


have time or interests in the "higher things" let them have their


desires and their unquestioned faith - The Grand


inquisitor was right) 





In the face of this ecological crisis we have to expand the base


of people with wisdom and judgement beyond the 1% or


2%, that have maintained civilization for six milium





Now maybe 2% even know the vaguest idea of what I am talking


about. In most peoples experience, their paradigm doesn't


include the concept that civilization is not a natural


process but created and maintained by a tiny group. They can see


it can fall apart. They may understand it is a process not just


there! (Survival is not a given)





A spirit has suggested to me that a broader education while not


likely is possible. If not now, sometime in the next


generation. We need to prepare Western Teachers. Sufi's sort of


gave up on the West but that as you see it was a mistake. The


environmental movement has hope. There are economist who are


thinking about value, there are new religious feelings, a few


leaders are thinking about sustainable - earth values - the dream


time. 





It is so sad - so little so late - too late for me - but the


grandchildren of my children - The grand cycle is coming to a


close. I would like the new one to begin peacefully. Most


uncommon - but if there is only one chance - what else can I do?


Can we just watch as Isaiah 34 takes place. Am I Jacob of Isaiah


44 - no I think not - don't get me wrong - but we sure need one -


If not me - WHO? If not now when? (45) The Bible - it is the text


for the Christians and Jews - and has tribal wisdom it. (also


almost everyone has one - so they


can go look it up)





God knows- I have prayed - I have visions - little of it


good, should I pretend it is - we all need hope. Yes, why


not, another illusion? Ye call me master, and obey me not. You


seek the light, but follow me not. This is the way, you do not


walk with me.  I am the life, you do not desire me, since I am


wise, you do not obey me. Be gracious and trust not in me or


yourselves, be noble and serve not the blind


spirits - be mighty and honor not my name. and do not serve your


master, be noble and give not honor where honor is due, be just


and without fear, for if I condemn you, do not blame me or


yourselves, the times are out of joint. The covenant is broken.





God, does he/she believe in me;





The Sufi way is tricky, you appear different to different


people and in different situations. This is the way of a


guide or teacher. I am safe and comfortable being who I am, but


you (the others) have expectations and needs. To need is to


expect, to expect is to demand. How am I to live up to


your needs, your demands, your expectations? God is the


same. He is mysterious. He/She is very comfortable being


what he is. He/She has no way of meeting all my needs,


satisfying all my demands, or coming up to all my


expectations. I have to take care of myself. God loves me


but like a good parent or teacher, encourages me to do the best I


can, be on my own. So I do with students. I can't do the work for


them. God can't live my life for me. We have


tasted the forbidden fruit and have gained judgement. To


judge is to be in error, and to live with mistakes. I'm only


human.





God was here before me. I put myself in relationship to God. All


existence is the face of God. I care to understand and be


understood. 





I am complex, I live in many roles and have more than one


face. Teacher, father, husband, citizen. gardener, sailor,


writer, thinker, materialist, greedy, faker, fraud,


pretender, dreamer, lover, I run away, I hide, I do a little


dance, I sin against my better self. I fail to that which I know


I "should". I live in the Dream Time, I live in the


"real world", I live in my scull. Who am I, you want to


know. How can I tell you. I am no one and everyman. God does all


these same things. I am in God and God in me. First


understand, then be understood. Holy Mary mother of God the


father, the Son and Holy Spirit, be with us now and in the hour


of our death. Something we are not meant to understand but are


mysteries. They are beyond words. I have a deep


appreciation for the mystery of existence.





I have been here for fifteen billion years. The Adam of my atoms,


the sound of the harmony of the universe has been


with me from creation. I did not come from nothing and when the


voice is quiet, I return to where I came from.  I do not expect


or demand from my God and He/she gives freely to me. All the


sense of time itself, the awareness of great glory. These are


free gifts of our creator, manna from heaven. God does not judge


me, for who am I to be judged. He lets me be and hopes for the


best. If I pay very close attention, clear my brain and soul of


distraction, I can come into the great love of God. It surround


me with light and love. The glory of the heavens surround me. The


wonder of the world, the


rain and wind, the spirits of the living planet whisper in my


ear.





Does it matter what I believe? I know the love of God and


the spirit of heaven. My ideas are only sound and furies,


signify nothing. Quiet my restless soul and tinkered voice -


quiet - and listen - open your ears, - open you eyes and


see- really see - clearly - Plant your feet into the soil - be


there quiet restless soul and you will know God and God will know


you.





I was with my father the day he died. It was in a small


hotel in Alicante. We were alone. His last words were "I


don't want to die."  Oh might Ceasar! dost thou lie so low? Are


are thy conquest, glories, triumphs, spoils, Shrunk to this


little measure? ..die many time before their death, the valiant


never taste of death but once. ..Seeing that death is a necessaey


end, Will come when it will come.








Idries Shah, 1924-       Learning how to learn :


psychology and spirituality in the Sufi way  EDITION:  1st U.S.


ed.     PUBLISHED :  San Francisco : Harper & Row,


Shah, Idries, 1924-         


TITLE The Sufis   PUBLISHED


Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday & Co., <1971, c1964>   


Shah, Idries, 1924- 


The exploits of the incomparable Mulla Nasrudin ; The


subtleties of the inimitable Mulla Nasrudin     


PUBLISHED :  London : Octagon Press, 1985,


c1983 


Shah, Idries, 1924- The pleasantries of the incredible Mulla


Nasrudin Special ed. London : Octagon Press,


Shah, Idries,


Wisdom of the Idiots       EDITION:  <2d enl. ed.>, 1979.


Thinkers of the East : studies in experientialism


PUBLISHED :  London : Octagon Press, c1982.


Seeker after truth : a handbook,  


Caravan of dreams, Octagon P., 1968.PN6071.S85 S48


A veiled gazelle : "seeing how to see" : Octagon, 1978.


Special illumination : the sufi use of humour Press, 1977.


"Beginning to begin" : neglected aspects of Sufi study


c1977. 


The way of the Sufi 1980.


The perfumed scorpion


The dermis probe


The magic monastery : analogical and action philosophy of


the Middle East and Central Asia     


PUBLISHED :  London : Octagon Press, 1981. 


Sufis     PUBLISHED :  London : Octagon Press, 1984. 


Tales of the dervishes : teaching-stories of the Sufi


masters over the past thousand years  EDITION:  <Special


ed.>   PUBLISHED :  London : Octagon Press,


<1982> 





RE: Ideology and the Republic:





 The Axioms of the "Age of Reason" or enlightment depended on the


ability of mankind to use "right reason" and "natural law."  The


American Constitution system was an outgrowth of this belief


system. It is an ideology I much admire, the


belief that man/woman can find the truth through discussion, open


debate, republican political processes, and a sense of civic


virtue. The ability of "political man/woman" was


original limited to those of property but quick expanded to all


while male citizens.  The political ideology of the


American Republic maybe impractical because of the size,


complexity, and moral decay of our country. We need to think of


alternatives. 





I learned in "Political Science" that Democracy depended on a


civic elite (Tom Dye, The Irony of Democracy). Merton,


Lipsets, and the mainstream textbooks showed that a small


percentage were really politically active. (Went to meeting,


joined organizations, gave money, talked politics, etc.).


The community power studies of Hunter,(Atlanta) Dalh, (New Haven)


and the social scientist - Middletown, Jonesville,


YankeeTown, showed how local elites work within a more or


less pluralism system. The vast book on Robert Moses, The


Master Builder (Cato) and Lyndon Johnson gave a very


realistic picture of practical politics, how things get done in


the real world. The "iron Triangle" and the power brokers give a


working guide to "power in Washington."





My own work with communities facing desegregation was a


practical application of "power" theories. I Omaha there


were the "six-pack", In Milwaukee the Ungelingher's (sp) and the


Newspaper (The power structure was out of town but


maintained agents - lawyers, foundations to help in local


affairs, including Wingspread where this took place), in


Orlando the Citrus Club, etc. This group and their agents


could help in the process of a smoother desegregation


process. In Louisville, Denver, these forces played out. In


Boston a section of the political elite (Louise Day Hicks)


created problems by trying to exploit racial fears for short tern


political gain. The economic and social effects were


pointed out to other civic elites who then worked to make


the process work. 





The case of New York City, (Linsey Administration and the


default) shows what happens when the power systems fails.


Too many actors, a lack of civic virtue (The Un-heavenly


City, James Q. Wilson and Edward Banefield.) compared to


Pittsburgh where the Carnagies, Pews, Melons, could rebuild an


older industrial town. Chicago had the downtown athletic club,


the Union League, The Tribune, and the machine and


things were done, the same types in Atlanta, but NYC was too


fractious and democratic. (Unions, ethic interests, personal


political machines, lack of concern by the Westchester,


Oyster bay and Conn. crowd. )





The conditions for civic affairs are civic orders. As James Q.


Wilson points out - once the rules break down authoritian


solutions can not be far behind - jails, police, men on


white horses (Parot) - Neo-fascist and romantic authoritians like


Bucannan and some of the "new Right." Kulture Krig


(Culture wars ) against the modern world - a new


inquisition. 





One set of alternatives were set out by Rex Tugwell when he was


at the "Center for the Study of Democracy" in Santa


Barbara. (Hutchins) Thing globally, act locally -


regionalism and decentralization is critical process


reforms. (The Age of Unreason - Handy) 





Ant. Julius Caesar Act V Scene V (end)


The civic virtue must have a new image: (Duty beyond self) (about


Brutus)


This was the noblest Roman of them all. All the


conspirators, save only he, Did what they did in envy of


Great Caesar; He only, in the general honest thought And


common good to all, made one of them. 


His life was gentle, and the elements So mixed in him that Nature


might stand up And say to all the world "This was a man!." 








RE: Shadow Prices, shadow values:





Economics is the study of human activity. Historically the


first question was about wealth. (The Wealth of Nations).


Spain had great "riches" from the Andes. "Riches" were not


wealth. The importation of gold created a confusion between


wealth and money. (and inflation) Wealth is productive


capacity. Production creates riches, but productive capacity


produces wealth. P and PC  P = the golden egg (riches) PC =


a magic goose = productive capacity. (Covey, Seven Habits of


Effective People)





Now if you look long term - very long term the productive


capacity means taking care of your goose. If you kill the


goose, for short term profits you loose both riches and


wealth. 





The second economic question had to do with distribution


(Das Capital) - Production requires cooperation - long term


systems - like the Keiretsu (formerly the Zaibatsu ) (MITSU,


23 members, Mitsubishi. 28 members - Sumitomo - 21 members,


Fuji - 29 members, Sanwa Group, 39 members, Dai_icki, 45


members, Deutsche Bank-Daimler-Benz, and Hatachi has 688


members in the family, Toyota 175 and 4.000 associates. With


in self-owning industrial groups, distribution questions can


be settled in a tribal way with cooperative between workers


and owners. There were called cartels. 





The problem with American Capitalism was instability due to


over production. Too many firms making to much.


Rationalization by people such as Morgan and John D. 


allowed market stability, long term planning, and vast


capital growth. But public policy didn't like the "robber


barons" and they did not fit classical economic theory.


Keysian demand stabilization was a response to the great


depression. The war did us no end of good. 





The activities of Japanese groups is stability, long term


growth, cooperation, good relationships, rather than profits


- as a bottom line. Their values are different therefore


they act different. American firms in the need to produce


those golden eggs (quarterly profits) had produced a sick


goose. 





************************************************************





RE:  In the world but not of the world:





John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made


through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to


that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.          


(NIV)


John 1:15 John (the baptist) testifies concerning him. He


cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, `He who


comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'" (NIV)





John 1:23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am


the voice of one calling in the desert, `Make straight the way


for the Lord.'"           (NIV)





John 9:5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the


world." (NIV) 





John 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has


hated them, for they  are not of the world any more than I am of


the world.  My prayer is not that you take them out of the world


but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the


world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your


word is truth. As you sent me into the


world, I have sent them into the world.  For them I sanctify


myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.           


(NIV)





1 John 2:11 This is the message you heard from the


beginning: We should love one another. (NIV)





John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If


anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in


him. 


1 John 2:18 Dear children, let us not love with words or


tongue but with actions and in truth. (NIV)





1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but


test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many


false prophets have  gone out into the world. (NIV)





1 Cor 14:10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the


world, yet none of them is without meaning. (NIV)





2 Cor 1:12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that


we have conducted ourselves in the world, and


especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and


sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to


worldly wisdom but according to God's grace.  For we do not write


you anything you cannot read or understand. And


I hope that,  as you have understood us in part, you will


come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will


boast of you... (NIV)


************************************************************